From: IN%"linguist@tamsun.tamu.edu" "The Linguist List" 11-OCT-1993 05:34:09.18 To: IN%"LINGUIST@TAMVM1.BITNET" "Multiple recipients of list LINGUIST" CC: Subj: 4.803 Shall Received: from HKUVM1.HKU.HK (MAILER@HKUVM1) by vax.csc.cuhk.hk (PMDF #12160) id <01H3Z44KH7UC8WVZU2@vax.csc.cuhk.hk>; Mon, 11 Oct 1993 05:32 +0800 Received: from HKUVM1.HKU.HK by HKUVM1.HKU.HK (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 1026; Mon, 11 Oct 93 04:59:22 HKT Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1993 06:51:14 -0500 From: The Linguist List Subject: 4.803 Shall Sender: The LINGUIST Discussion List To: Multiple recipients of list LINGUIST Reply-to: The Linguist List Message-id: <01H3Z44KH7UC8WVZU2@vax.csc.cuhk.hk> Comments: To: linguist@tamvm1.tamu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-4-803. Sat 09 Oct 1993. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 120 Subject: 4.803 Shall Moderators: Anthony Rodrigues Aristar: Texas A&M U. Helen Dry: Eastern Michigan U. Asst. Editor: Ron Reck -------------------------Directory------------------------------------- 1) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 93 10:46:48 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: 4.787 Pronouns, Shall 2) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 93 10:53:45 EST From: mark Subject: shall 3) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 9:23:25 EDT From: John X. Laporta Subject: Re: 4.775 Shall -------------------------Messages-------------------------------------- 1) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 93 10:46:48 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: 4.787 Pronouns, Shall I couldn't let this discussion of 'will' vs. 'shall' (especially in connection with Leo Connolly's post, with its citation of #You will not commit adultery, #Shall I die?, etc.) pass without mentioning my favorite illustration of the standard prescriptive line, according to which 'will' indicates determination (i.e. a root meaning) for first person but simple (epistemic) futurity for second and third persons, while 'shall' indicates just the opposite. The classic minimal pair, then, is that of the two swimmers in extremis: (1) I shall drown; no one will save me! (2) I will drown; no one shall save me! (1) is, of course, the despairing cry of the swimmer who has lost hope of rescue, while (2) is the determined promise of the would-be suicide. An elegant, economical theory which unfortunately seems not to bear any connection with reality for any period in the history of English. (If you don't agree, you could test the theory by applying for a grant to bring Dr. Kevorkian to the seashore...) --Larry Horn -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 93 10:53:45 EST From: mark Subject: shall I've always felt "shall" in contemporary spoken American English to be a sign of the "imperative interrogative". It asks whether there is a command/desire, on the part of the addressee or some person or group whose wishes the addressee presumably knows, that the S be performed. In the first person singular, this can be made explicit as "Do you want me to S?". In the first person plural, it's "Do you think we-inclusive should S?" or "Do you want us-exclusive to S?". In the third person, parallel to the first, it's "Do you want him/her/them to S?". Actually, the wisher doesn't have to be the addressee. It just works out that way most often, because the alternative is that you're asking the addressee's opinion on someone else's wishes. This is the only interpretation of "Shall you S?". The first person plural is the odd man out, different in that in the inclusive interpretation, which is by far the more frequent, the addressee is part of both the "authority" and the "subordinate", the wisher and the performer. But that's the nature of consensus. (By the way, I owe the superficially-paradoxical term "imperative interrogative" to an acquaintance of my teen years, one Danny Rosenthal. I thought it to be non-referential until I realized that it exactly describes the Esperanto construction used to translate "Shall we S?", and by extension the illocutionary force of this English construction.) Mark A. Mandel Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St. : Newton, Mass. 02160, USA : mark@dragonsys.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 9:23:25 EDT From: John X. Laporta Subject: Re: 4.775 Shall About shall and will, my high school grammar put it this way. "Shall" means absolute certainty in the second and third person and mere statement of intent in the first person. "Will" means absolute certainty in the first person and mere statement of intent in the second and third persons. I shall go to Mexico (I mean to but may not go to Mexico). We will go to Mexico (to get our brother out of jail). Thou shalt not kill. You shall take out the garbage now, no ifs ands or buts. You will have a chance to go to the opera this season. -- John X. Laporta Senior Member of Technical Staff GTE Laboratories Incorporated 40 Sylvan Road Waltham MA 02254 USA (617) 466-2095 jxl0@gte.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-4-803.